Difference between revisions of "HSNCT and its Problems"

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<onlyinclude>The [[hsquizbowl.org|forum]] thread "'''HSNCT and its Problems'''"<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=383465#p383465 HSNCT and its Problems] by [[etotheipi]] » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:27 pm</ref> was initiated by [[Aadi Karthik]] in the lead-up to the [[2021 HSNCT]]. The thread's goal was to outline a number of issues with the logistics of [[HSNCT]] and with the operation of [[NAQT]] more generally.
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<onlyinclude>"'''HSNCT and its Problems'''"<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=383465#p383465 HSNCT and its Problems] by [[etotheipi]] » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:27 pm</ref> was a [[hsquizbowl.org|forum]] thread started by [[Arya Karthik]] in the lead-up to the [[2021 HSNCT]]. It summarized a number of issues with the logistics of [[HSNCT]] and with the operation of [[NAQT]] more generally.
  
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Aadi's initial post was widely criticized for its poor tone and the naivete of its arguments regarding logistics, costs, and NAQT's finances.</onlyinclude>
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The initial post was criticized for its poor tone, and discussion largely focused on the arguments regarding logistics, costs, and NAQT's finances rather than more subjective questions of question quality and difficulty variance.</onlyinclude>
  
 
==Prologue==
 
==Prologue==
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The 2021 season was marked by a rise in [[anti-NAQT sentiment]] among members of the high school community, largely centered around the [[hsquizbowl Discord]]. Throughout the regular season this manifested as widespread dismissal of [[IS]] sets in favor of [[housewrites]] like [[DART]] and [[STASH]] and (to some degree) the events run by [[AQBL]]. Some amount of this can be attributed to many members of the writing staff of these sets being active members of online spaces and actively proselytizing for their projects, but that behavior was not a new phenomenon. Regardless of the specific reasoning, it quickly became a popular opinion to think NAQT was uniquely bad as a quizbowl product and that the idiosyncrasies of the distribution (and in particular the [[mixed impure academic]]) were distinct negatives. Two months before HSNCT, a discussion of perceived flaws in the HSNCT set and the tournament itself in the hsquizbowl Discord culminated in the post; its opening line referenced these pseudo-private conversations by saying "this post is long overdue".
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The 2021 season was marked by a rise in [[anti-NAQT sentiment]] among members of the high school community, largely centered around the [[hsquizbowl Discord]]. Throughout the regular season this manifested as widespread dismissal of [[IS]] sets in favor of [[housewrites]] like [[DART]] and [[STASH]] and (to some degree) the events run by [[AQBL]]. Some amount of this can be attributed to many members of the writing staff of these sets being active members of online spaces and actively proselytizing for their projects, but that behavior was not a new phenomenon. Regardless of the specific reasoning, it quickly became a popular opinion to think NAQT was a subpar quizbowl product and that the idiosyncrasies of the distribution (and in particular the [[mixed impure academic]]) were distinct negatives compared to mACF-style sets. Two months before HSNCT, a discussion of perceived flaws in the HSNCT set and the tournament itself in the hsquizbowl Discord culminated in the post.
  
 
==Initial post==
 
==Initial post==
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The major points raised in the inintial post were a lack of guidelines to deal with cheating, the high cost of the tournament, the timing rules, and the supposedly low quality and variable difficulty of HSNCT questions. The post drew controversy for describing HSNCT questions as "low-quality", not "reasonable-quality product", and "of such low quality that it's hard to call NAQT '[[pyramidal]] [[good quizbowl]]' anymore", and the decreased number of top teams attending HSNCT a "revolt". It is worth noting that the claim that NAQT is not "pyramidal good quizbowl" is objectively false.
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The major points raised in the initial post were a lack of guidelines to deal with cheating, the high cost of the tournament, the timing rules, and issues with the quality and variable difficulty of HSNCT questions. The post drew controversy for describing HSNCT questions as "of such low quality that it's hard to call NAQT '[[pyramidal]] [[good quizbowl]]' anymore." The accepted definition of "[[good quizbowl]]", however, focuses on factors like [[pyramidal]] structure and [[fairness]] rather than any strict standard of quality. It is the community consensus that NAQT continues to be "good quizbowl".
  
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Even as many pushed NAQT to change their timing rules and seconded the request for clarity on cheating guidelines, the remainder of the post was almost universally criticized and, in many cases, openly ridiculed. While several posters explicitly noted their openness to criticisms of NAQT and the HSNCT,<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=383493#p383493 Re: HSNCT and its Problems] by [[jonpin]] » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:43 pm</ref> the only person to agree with points of the original post was Aadi, who made a post reaffirming their support of their arguments after the fact.
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While several posters noted their openness to criticisms of NAQT and the HSNCT,<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=383493#p383493 Re: HSNCT and its Problems] by [[jonpin]] » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:43 pm</ref>, and though NAQT soon provided the requested clarity on their cheating guidelines, the remainder of the post was almost universally criticized (the section on timing rules being the exception). After the [[2021 HSNCT]], Arya made a post reaffirming their support of their arguments and criticisms.
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==Arguments==
 
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The post's discussion of HSNCT's format and cost prompted many rebuttals.
 
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{|class="wikitable"
 
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!Point
 
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!Counterpoint(s)
 
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|-
 
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|At $650 HSNCT was "far too expensive", particularly when compared to [[NSC]] ($450) and [[ONCT]] ($250)
 
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|
 
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*HSNCT is a competition run by NAQT, a for-profit company which has both strong incentives to lower costs as much as possible and unavoidable fixed costs
 
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*NSC was a tournament with half as many teams run by a non-profit
 
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**these are major factors for why they were able to cut prices
 
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*ONCT was a first time national which outsourced its questions (to a group that included the author of this post) and would end up running into major logistical issues due to insufficient staff, while having a field roughly a quarter of HSNCT
 
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*the vast, vast majority of teams paid less for 2021 HSNCT than any previous iteration, as there were no associated travel costs (which are almost always much, much more than the actual registration fees)
 
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**it was noted that this may be been overlooked because [[Lambert]] High School, where the poster attended school, was in the same city as many recent HSNCTs (Atlanta) and thus would have zero travel or hotel costs
 
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|-
 
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|HSNCT's price was not justified because it only guaranteed 8 rounds, while tournaments like [[SMH]] Southeast had 9 and NSC had 13
 
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|
 
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*One can argue about whether HSNCT has ever been worth it but it is not a point that is unique to the 2021 season.
 
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**If the price of 10 rounds of HSNCT was justified, it is not a stretch to say that 8 rounds is also justified (especially when considering the travel-related savings mentioned in previous points).
 
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**NSC has always guaranteed more games
 
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*The comparison with SMH is an almost complete non-sequitur - the logistics of regular season (college) tournaments with 18 teams cannot be meaningfully compared to those of a national (high school) tournament with over two hundred teams. Even the comparison with NSC is strained - even though it is also a national, it is less than half the size of HSNCT. Obviously it would be preferable to use the "fairer" format of a round robin, but that requires orders of magnitude more rounds. HSNCT is already large enough that it has to use a card system for prelims (one of the few tournaments to do so); even after eliminating half the field, it still has over a hundred teams, which is far too large to do a true round robin and or even a rebracketing scheme.
 
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|-
 
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|HSNCT's use of double elimination is outdated and bad in comparison to a format using rebracketing; few tournaments still use double elimination.
 
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|
 
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*The format of HSNCT is many things, but outdated is not one - it has received significant changes as recently as 2019 and is perhaps the most complicated format of any quizbowl tournament.
 
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*Few other tournaments use double elimination because no non-HSNCT tournaments have ever approached the size of HSNCT.
 
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|-
 
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|NAQT should simply restrict its field size to make change to a different format possible.
 
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|While it's not an absurd idea that HSNCT limit its field to allow a better format, it would require cutting the majority of the field to implement this change - to have a format like NSC, one requires a field like NSC. The current format of HSNCT (with its split prelims on the card system and the double-elim playoffs) is the only reason it can be run at its current size, let alone expand (as it has historically done).
 
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|-
 
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|NAQT should release its packets for free after they are clear, as is done with housewrites.
 
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|
 
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*Purchasing IS sets makes up an indeterminate but non-zero percentage of NAQT's profits. They have a compelling economic interest as a for-profit company to not releasing their packets.
 
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*The current norm of questions being released for free after their [[mirrors]] are finished is largely a byproduct of the decentralized nature of quizbowl and its spirit of volunteerism. It is an unusual situation that is only sustained by the willingness of quizbowl [[writers]] and [[editors]] to write for pennies.
 
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*It should not be held against NAQT that they are seeking a profit (both here and in general) because a) there is no compelling reason to believe that they do not act in the community's best interest, b) their prices are not unreasonable (especially in the case of packets), and c) they are not the only provider of this resource, so teams are not being excluded from participating because of this price barrier - there are many equivalent sets available for free
 
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|}
 
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The discussion of difficulty received less scrutiny, as that is largely a subjective assessment. However, it was pointed out that the post's statement that one bonus was significantly harder than another was largely based on [[database]] hits (a method that is known to be flawed<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=292958#p292958 Database Hits Do Not Determine Difficulty] by [[Adventure Temple Trail]] » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:02 pm</ref>); furthermore, several posters disagreed with the conclusion.<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=383479#p383479 Re: HSNCT and its Problems] by [[Santa Claus]] » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:40 am</ref>
 
−
 
 
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The discussion of the mixed academic question on "souls" was largely invalidated because the poster lacked the awareness to know that the question's [[leadin]] (Sam & Dave's song ''Soul Man'') easily met various criteria of [[importance]]. The use of phrase "boomer trash" to describe that clue was criticized both for being incorrect and for being a dismissive form of gatekeeping.
 
  
 
==Aftermath==
 
==Aftermath==
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None of these counterpoints were ever addressed publicly, with any discussion that did occur happening in the hsquizbowl Discord (effectively out of the public eye) or in truly private channels.
+
None of the counterpoints raised were addressed further publicly, with any discussion that did occur happening in the hsquizbowl Discord (effectively out of the public eye) or in private channels.
−
 
 
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After HSNCT, [[Kevin Wang]] made an inflammatory post asking whether Aadi still believed in any of the points made in the original post, in particular criticizing the seeming hypocrisy of Aadi attending HSNCT with his [[Lambert]] team (and performing well) after making the post. The response doubled down on the arguments regarding cost, prompting a final rebuttal by [[Patrick Matthews]].<ref>[https://hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=384696#p384696 Re: HSNCT and its Problems] by [[matthewspatrick]] » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:38 pm</ref>
 
  
−
The sentiments that led to the writing of the post persisted (and may continue to persist) long after - in a Discord discussion held after the final post in the thread, individuals claimed that "its a general consensus" that NAQT questions didn't meet modern standards<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849327589445206066 some of the questions just aren't up to the standard that we have in quiz bowl now days]</ref><ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849327814757842984 i believe its a general consensus]</ref> and that NAQT should just consider doing college mirrors of HSNCT<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849323130404470794 for example, maybe naqt could seek college mirrors of hsnct? smh will likely be paying both its writers and editors pretty decently, and this is why]</ref>. High schoolers continued to not understand the economics of quizbowl in general and NAQT in particular: claims were made that NAQT was not "even close to losing money" due to [[Buzzword]],<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849322452239515719 I don’t think NAQT is even close to losing money, given the revenue Buzzword generates]</ref> that NAQT should make HSNCT at a loss,<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849326161203822622 you can still make overpriced things at a loss]</ref> that NAQT was not trying hard enough to lower prices,<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849322387337642025 this does not necessarily mean that naqt is maliciously raising their price! it just means that they are possibly not putting enough attention into getting costs down]</ref> and that NAQT doesn't pay a lot for rooms.<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849321156627922964 to be fair, it's really unlikely that it costs a lot for naqt to pay for rooms]</ref>
+
The sentiments that led to the writing of the post persisted (and may continue to persist) long after - in a discussion held after the final post in the thread, individuals in the high school Discord claimed that "its a general consensus" that NAQT questions didn't meet modern standards<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849327589445206066 some of the questions just aren't up to the standard that we have in quiz bowl now days]</ref><ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849327814757842984 i believe its a general consensus]</ref> and that NAQT should just consider doing college mirrors of HSNCT.<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849323130404470794 for example, maybe naqt could seek college mirrors of hsnct? smh will likely be paying both its writers and editors pretty decently, and this is why]</ref> Most sentiments were and still are due to improper understandings of the economics of quizbowl in general and NAQT in particular: other claims include that NAQT was not "even close to losing money" due to revenue from [[Buzzword]],<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849322452239515719 I don’t think NAQT is even close to losing money, given the revenue Buzzword generates]</ref> that NAQT should make HSNCT at a loss,<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849326161203822622 you can still make overpriced things at a loss]</ref> that NAQT was not trying hard enough to lower prices,<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849322387337642025 this does not necessarily mean that naqt is maliciously raising their price! it just means that they are possibly not putting enough attention into getting costs down]</ref> and that NAQT doesn't pay a lot for rooms.<ref>[https://discord.com/channels/431165274834599937/431165274834599945/849321156627922964 to be fair, it's really unlikely that it costs a lot for naqt to pay for rooms]</ref>
  
 
==References==
 
==References==
 
<references/>
 
<references/>

Latest revision as of 12:53, 29 March 2023

"HSNCT and its Problems"[1] was a forum thread started by Arya Karthik in the lead-up to the 2021 HSNCT. It summarized a number of issues with the logistics of HSNCT and with the operation of NAQT more generally.

The initial post was criticized for its poor tone, and discussion largely focused on the arguments regarding logistics, costs, and NAQT's finances rather than more subjective questions of question quality and difficulty variance.

Prologue

The 2021 season was marked by a rise in anti-NAQT sentiment among members of the high school community, largely centered around the hsquizbowl Discord. Throughout the regular season this manifested as widespread dismissal of IS sets in favor of housewrites like DART and STASH and (to some degree) the events run by AQBL. Some amount of this can be attributed to many members of the writing staff of these sets being active members of online spaces and actively proselytizing for their projects, but that behavior was not a new phenomenon. Regardless of the specific reasoning, it quickly became a popular opinion to think NAQT was a subpar quizbowl product and that the idiosyncrasies of the distribution (and in particular the mixed impure academic) were distinct negatives compared to mACF-style sets. Two months before HSNCT, a discussion of perceived flaws in the HSNCT set and the tournament itself in the hsquizbowl Discord culminated in the post.

Initial post

The major points raised in the initial post were a lack of guidelines to deal with cheating, the high cost of the tournament, the timing rules, and issues with the quality and variable difficulty of HSNCT questions. The post drew controversy for describing HSNCT questions as "of such low quality that it's hard to call NAQT 'pyramidal good quizbowl' anymore." The accepted definition of "good quizbowl", however, focuses on factors like pyramidal structure and fairness rather than any strict standard of quality. It is the community consensus that NAQT continues to be "good quizbowl".

While several posters noted their openness to criticisms of NAQT and the HSNCT,[2], and though NAQT soon provided the requested clarity on their cheating guidelines, the remainder of the post was almost universally criticized (the section on timing rules being the exception). After the 2021 HSNCT, Arya made a post reaffirming their support of their arguments and criticisms.

Aftermath

None of the counterpoints raised were addressed further publicly, with any discussion that did occur happening in the hsquizbowl Discord (effectively out of the public eye) or in private channels.

The sentiments that led to the writing of the post persisted (and may continue to persist) long after - in a discussion held after the final post in the thread, individuals in the high school Discord claimed that "its a general consensus" that NAQT questions didn't meet modern standards[3][4] and that NAQT should just consider doing college mirrors of HSNCT.[5] Most sentiments were and still are due to improper understandings of the economics of quizbowl in general and NAQT in particular: other claims include that NAQT was not "even close to losing money" due to revenue from Buzzword,[6] that NAQT should make HSNCT at a loss,[7] that NAQT was not trying hard enough to lower prices,[8] and that NAQT doesn't pay a lot for rooms.[9]

References

  1. ↑ HSNCT and its Problems by etotheipi » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:27 pm
  2. ↑ Re: HSNCT and its Problems by jonpin » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:43 pm
  3. ↑ some of the questions just aren't up to the standard that we have in quiz bowl now days
  4. ↑ i believe its a general consensus
  5. ↑ for example, maybe naqt could seek college mirrors of hsnct? smh will likely be paying both its writers and editors pretty decently, and this is why
  6. ↑ I don’t think NAQT is even close to losing money, given the revenue Buzzword generates
  7. ↑ you can still make overpriced things at a loss
  8. ↑ this does not necessarily mean that naqt is maliciously raising their price! it just means that they are possibly not putting enough attention into getting costs down
  9. ↑ to be fair, it's really unlikely that it costs a lot for naqt to pay for rooms
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